Saw this on LDS Living and loved it. I have LDS LGBT friends who are both “out” and not “out,” so any negative comments are not appreciated and will not be posted. Thank you for striving to follow Christ’s example in this. This is meant to be an uplifting post.
I had the rare opportunity, a few years ago, to live with my oldest niece for two years while she was finishing her teaching license requirements at BYU and I was back at BYU trying to finish my BA. She was still in the young BYU, early 20’s crowd (and met her husband during that time) and I was attending the “Midsingles Ward” (ages 30-45) that I’m still a member of today. In my niece I had a fun roommate, and I also had fun watching her and her friends’ experiences in the BYU dating scene.
I think it goes without saying that the dating scene among BYU students and that of singles over age 30 is different in many ways, and that anyone outside of Utah or older than 25 or 30 has fewer prospects for dating. However, I had a lot of fun recently interviewing singles of different ages and places as to their definition of what constitutes a “date” versus “hanging out.” Sound familiar?
As we near the 10th anniversary of Elder Oaks’ talk on May 1st…
I was recently divorced and attending classes at UCLA and the Westwood LDS Institute of Religion when Elder and Sister Oaks gave their now classic talks on “Hanging Out.” I was a little amused by the reaction it caused, with singles worrying that he was trying to say that we should never, ever spend time with a group of friends. The singles that I knew at UCLA seemed to me to be pretty brave about asking each other out, so I figured they were being hard on themselves. Hopefully we’re not still beating ourselves as singles, but can also be aware of where we need to leave our “safe place” and take some chances. (Incidentally, most of those students that I knew are now married with children, so they must have done something right.)
As for us “older folk,” and the YSA’s, are we avoiding dating by sticking to the safety of “hanging out”, or are we still making our best effort? That was the aspect of Elder Oaks’ and Sister Oaks’ talks that I remember most. You can go back and read it here. I think people forget that Sister Oaks spoke, too, because Elder Oaks dropped the “bombshell,” (depending on how you saw it), then she got to be the comforting, “I’ve been where you are before….” because she didn’t get married until she was in her 50’s. Maybe that’s why.
I had fun “interviewing” friends at church and singles in LDS Facebook groups on their thoughts these 10 years later. It turned out to be quite entertaining, and gave me some things to think about. I hope you enjoy it at least almost as much as I did. (All names changed.) Here you go:
Isaiah: Pairing off is the important part.
Hyeon: I prefer to become friends first before a date. I tried the dating thing first – it kills it.
Austin: You know it when you see it. Midsingles tend to stop at hanging out.
Luke: Make sure people know it’s a date. Having been hurt so much, hanging out is safer. Nobody gets hurt.
(Insert: I disagree with this to an extent. A lot of people can get hurt with hanging out, wondering why a certain person hasn’t asked them out, etc. But I think that depends on how you handle things emotionally, and what your expectations are.)
Jessica: A date is when two people, having common interests, participate in a mutually decided upon activity with the intent to analyze each other’s words, actions, and suitability for eternal companionship …my opinion of course.
Ian: Planned, paid for and paired off?
Jennifer: In order to clarify with men about if we are on a date, if a man asks me to hang out with them I ask “you mean like on a date?” So the ball is in their court. They will clarify for me and then I can decide do I want to hang or date. I now have no confusion, I force the issue.
Paul: I agree with Jessica, but would add, that is what I would say from a religious standpoint and it is regardless of whether the intent is there to analyze those things… and regardless of whether there are actually any common interests, because sometimes the date is solely to find out IF there are common interests, because one often does not know and if there are common interests, one often does not even notice they are actually analyzing words, actions and suitability for eternal companionship, as their intent may have only been to go have fun.
Stephanie: I had a “guy friend” for several years who continuously asked if he could come over to my house or if I would go to his (oh boy, I hope he doesn’t see this or he’ll recognize his story, haha) and watch a movie while cuddling. In my standard, that was a recipe for trouble and I didn’t want him around my children unless we had really had some official dating time under our belts. A while back he mentioned he was irritated with me because I kept shooting him down when he was asking me out. I was so confused. I guess it’s safe to say, in MY book, I never recognized asking to sit and cuddle on one of our couches as a date. I would say it’s when one asks another out to enjoy each other’s company if you already know each other or get to know each other, with the potential or possibility of a more close and intimate relationship. PS: (in case you’re wondering), I don’t have any problems with communication and I directly told him I didn’t feel what he was suggesting was appropriate unless we had actually dated so I was little irritated by his irritation and confusion.
Seong: Surely it’s not always realized, Paul (above comment). However, why would someone agree to a ‘date’ if there wasn’t at least one common interest? I wouldn’t agree to go on a date without first evaluating the situation to see if there is a reason to oblige.
Julie: Hanging out is when people are too scared to pair off. hhahaha Just kidding. Hanging out should be just friends and maybe it’s a chance to find people to ask out. A first date should be time spent with someone to get to know them and decide if you want to go out on a second date. That’s it. No commitment beyond that. The second date should help you get to know them more and decide if you’d like to have a 3rd date with them. That’s all. Simple, fun, laid back. Can we get over this idea that a date is a freaking marriage proposal? lol Then maybe more people would actually be going out on real dates. Also, dates do not need to require ANY money to be spent, I hear that excuse a lot and I think it’s silly. My most favorite dates consisted of hiking, having a picnic the guy made, or watching science/ nature documentaries cause I’m a geek like that. Another good example….I went on a really awkward date once where we went to a fun center place and did batting cages, go carts, golf, you name it. Hardly talked. The guy must have spent $80 on the two of us. The most fun part of the date was at the house afterward when we played air hockey in his basement! Could have skipped the money-sucking fun center and had a great free date instead.
Sasha: A fruit.
Eva: Hanging out is a group thing, if it’s one-on-one then it’s a date.
Paul: that common interest could be as simple as, you are both LDS and single… and that might be enough for some people. I have certainly dated plenty of women based on that premise. I used to travel a LOT at one point, and I went to church in wards or branches in not only other states but even in other countries.
Sometimes I was a short timer, only there for maybe a month or so, even less, and I’d go to an activity or an FHE for YSA or something, and meet people and ask a girl out on a date… one night before I left town, when I knew nothing about them, except, they were cute, they were members, and they were in the same place I was, and I wanted to know more about them. I met a lot of wonderful young women this way. Many I didn’t have enough in common with them to stay in touch, but I discovered that due to my many varied interests, I had at least something in common with everyone I ever met, even when they were not members and I met them in other ways, but I still knew very little to nothing about them. I found that my ability to ask along with her ability to answer was all we had to have in common to go out and have a good time, regardless of who they were or where I was…
Heck, to be honest, I have even went on dates with many different women where the only thing we had in common was that I barely spoke their language and they barely spoke mine (oh and we were both interested in learning each others language better too). At least until we went out and spent some time getting to know each other. Then we always found out there was plenty we had in common.
Jessica: I’m not arguing the simplicity of the common interest, just that there is some form of common ground present before agreeing to a date
Stephanie: I have to agree with Paul on this one, Jessica (which I rarely do because it’s so fun NOT to agree with him, haha), there have been several occasions when I’ve gone on a date with someone I briefly met at a singles conference or event that I didn’t have time to talk to at any length with before our date. I’ve also been set up by friends with guys I didn’t know at all but still considered it a date regardless of how “blind” it was. I think the definition has to do with the intent of the participants.
Matt: A date is spending time with someone, getting to know them on a personal level. A date is a way to open up and be who you are with someone you care about.
Sandy: To me a date is when two people interested in getting to know each other on a deeper level than just media meet up in a save environment and have a fun and mutually entertaining time together while getting to know what the person is all about in person
LaShaun: There are two kinds of dates. One is a dried fruit, the other is a social interaction between a man and a woman engaging in a mutually enjoyable activity. I think Canada is too cold (for) the dried fruit kind to grow, however they keep well and are sold in almost all grocery stores. They are the only kind of date I’ve had lately.
Crystal: Spending time one on one with the opposite sex.
Lauren: To quote Elder Oaks, “Paired off, planned out, and paid for.”
Rebecca: An arranged time to talk on the phone. lol
Nathan: A date is something that I do once a year just to shut my mother up.
Akahata: A date is an appointment that you make with someone that you want to get to know in a romantic way.
Jason: The sweet brown fruit of various types of palm trees
Akahata: A date is when two people are going to dinner. The guy is acting weird. The girl isnt feeling it and wants to leave but the guy tells her to get a ride lol
Holly: I was told by a guy friend, if he pays, you spend time together, it’s a date…. This confused me because that meant he and I had been on multiple dates without me knowing. My definition is in flux because of this.
Holly: Namon, we did walk around the table 3 times counter clock wise… uh, oh!
Jason: Yeah, I agree with Namon, why aren’t you with your husband, Holly? Tsk tsk.
Holly: Good question, I better go find him.
Jason: See Elder Oaks’ remarks about the 3 P’s…and it should be obvious that the intent is a date, for both parties. You can’t just like subversively string together the planning, the paying, and the paring off and be like “What?! Date #1! Ah yee-ah!” That’s not how it works… hahaha.
How often do we, as singles, wonder if the reason we still aren’t married is because there is something wrong with us, or because we’re not worthy? Imperfect people get married every day. In fact, everyone who gets married is imperfect. We know that. And if there are still goals to achieve or miles to climb before we get there, beating ourselves up isn’t going to help us in that process. We are enough.
I don’t know how many of you are familiar with Al Fox Carraway, more commonly known as “The Tattooed Mormon” because, well, she has tattoos. She’s far from the only Mormon with tattoos, though, whether you’ve run into them or not. She is a convert to the Church and is a frequent speaker at firesides. I’ve never had the opportunity to hear her speak, unfortunately, but I love her blog.
I came across this entry tonight while I was browsing through LDS Living. I will post just a portion, but please read the rest. If you are culturally different from those around you, are finding yourself back in school for a career change and are worried about the future, whether you feel you’re doing all you can or have some significant changes you need to make spiritually, don’t give up on yourself.
It’s funny, I never put thought into getting married until I got baptized. I joked saying I swallowed some of the baptism water, because quickly after then I had thoughts of, “Where’s my husband?!” Haha. And exactly 4 years later, to the date, I got married and sealed. How’s that for a baptism anniversary! A few short months after my baptism, Elder Krause and Elder Richardson gave me a lesson on Eternal Marriages- one of them said that in their Patriarchal Blessing their future wife is preparing from him right now. I decided right then and there that I was going to do that too. I knew the only way to do that is to become as close to the Lord and I possibly could. They also made me write a letter to my future spouse, which was a little awkward at first not knowing who he was at the time, but proved to be an awesome thing. It was the start of 2010 I did that, right before I would pack up my life into a 2-Door Alero Oldsmobile and drove across the country to UT, for who knows why at the time, where I would eventually meet him 3.5 years down the line.
It wasn’t until Utah that my life took a turn in a direction I didn’t even know was a possibility for myself. The closer I became to my Savior and Father, (not just because of my future spouse, but out of pure joy and desire,) the more my I started doing things I never thought I could ever do. Not once has things gone the way I had in mind, which can be really difficult at times- you have those fleeting thoughts of if God truly cares about you, or if He actually listens to your prayers and knows you- but how grateful I am that they did not go the way I had in mind. Because they have been profoundly better. Looking the way that I do and moving to Utah, I had it in the back of my head that I would never get married because of the looks and reactions I would get. But I knew that nothing should override my initial and prominent goal: to live and share the gospel. To love and live for my God. Never would I let what I didn’t have get in the way of that. Never would I let a change of course take away from the unchangeable truth that if I were trying, I would be blessed. I would be taken care of, no matter what.